Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 7997;andrew.cmu.edu;Ted Anderson Received: from hogtown.andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr11/tm2b/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sat, 9 Mar 91 01:28:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Precedence: junk Reply-To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU From: space-request+@Andrew.CMU.EDU To: space+@Andrew.CMU.EDU Date: Sat, 9 Mar 91 01:28:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #243 SPACE Digest Volume 13 : Issue 243 Today's Topics: Re: Outgassing Re: Value per pound vs. cost per pound Re: Thrust Re: Naval Observatory Re: Space Profits SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN - PACKET RADIO DISTRIBUTION Re: German conference highlights doubts about ESA's manned space plans Administrivia: Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to space+@andrew.cmu.edu. Other mail, esp. [un]subscription requests, should be sent to space-request+@andrew.cmu.edu, or, if urgent, to tm2b+@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Mar 91 16:09:54 GMT From: microsoft!davidle@uunet.uu.net (David LEVINE) Subject: Re: Outgassing In article <19684@ists.ists.ca> white@nereid.ists.ca (Harold Peter White) writes: >A friend of mine has asked me to ask around for references about the >following: >1. The effects of outgassing of matterials in interplanetary space. Every component in Galileo was check for (among many other properties) outgassing. Plastic items like cable ties and connector parts are manufactured out of special materials that minimize outgassing and many of them are then "cooked" to prevent any residual outgassing. That's one reason why the $2.50 DB-25 connector you use on your computer costs JPL $75 (other reasons are gold plating, plastic forms that don't melt under your soldering iron and much higher tolerances). That "new car smell" apparently is considered to be contamination to a spacecraft. I don't know the specific effects but I imagine that optics are most critical followed by electronics. David Levine (davidle@microsoft) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 91 18:42:54 GMT From: isis!isis!gaserre@uunet.uu.net (Glenn A. Serre) Subject: Re: Value per pound vs. cost per pound Comments (to comments?): Henry says: >Relatively insignificant. Rockets get out of the atmosphere as quickly >as they can for several reasons. Nick: So that's why rocket engineers hold their breaths at the point of maximum aerodynamic stress? Me: It's actually the Launch Ops guys that hold their breaths, the engineers who designed and built the rocket are probably not there :-). Seriously, (in ELVs at least) the payloads are the ones worried about max-q or max buffet. The rocket itself (? You know what I mean) doesn't really need to worry too much. Henry says: >...There may be a slight constraint to avoid major releases >into sensitive regions of the upper atmosphere, but I can't imagine this >having much impact, given that launchers climb through those regions >very quickly for other reasons already. Nick: This "coasting phase to protect the ozone" is yet another constraint that must be imposed on a system already strained to its technical limits. Me: Who mentioned a "coasting phase"? Just don't use solid fuel boosters that produce Chlorine compounds, use rp1-lox, lh2-lox, or NO4-N2H2. Nick: >>* Safety and handling costs of handling large structures and large >> amounts of fuel in one gravity and an atmosphere filled with >> oxygen. Henry says: >Long since solved completely in other industries Nick: Name _one_ industry that successfully handles large, fragile, fuel-filled, use-once-and-throw-away objects at low costs. The military is the major field that does this, and the costs are not low. Me: The ELV industry? ELVs aren't all that fragile, they don't get handled when their filled with fuel, and handling doesn't cost much time or money. Henry says: >Nobody has had any real incentive to cut cost per >pound. Nick: This is sort of like saying "we _want_ to pay over a dollar a gallon at the pumps, c'mon Exxon raise it some more!" :-) In Econ 101 we learn that customers do indeed like to have their costs reduced. Me: Customers do say: We want %100 reliability. We want %100 launch availability We want everything cleaned to clean room standards. We want to launch on need. We want custom interfaces. Etc. etc. Essentially, they _want_ to pay $5,000/lb --Glenn Serre gaserre@nyx.cs.du.edu -- --Glenn Serre gaserre@nyx.cs.du.edu -- --Glenn Serre gaserre@nyx.cs.du.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 91 21:36:19 EST From: John Roberts Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are those of the sender and do not reflect NIST policy or agreement. Subject: Re: Thrust >From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) >Subject: Re: Thrust >Date: 7 Mar 91 21:49:41 GMT >Organization: U of Toronto Zoology >In article steve@Advansoft.COM (Steve Savitzky) writes: >> ... Basically, solar panels charge a battery that drives a heating >> element in a water tank that generates steam which is released out a >> nozzle... >> >>How inefficient! Why not use solar energy to heat the water directly? >Because the solar panels and batteries have to be there already. Direct >solar heating requires designing your whole spacecraft around it, and >incidentally only works when you're in sunlight. There are two approaches that can be taken - batteries+solar cells or mirror taken along with the orbital craft when it takes off, or a "heating station", to service a number of vehicles. If you have a good number of payloads to launch, the latter method can be helpful for either technique. If the batteries are taken along, which can store more usable energy per kilogram - heated water, or batteries + water? One problem with the solar heating is that all the water must be heated ahead of time, and at the high temperatures needed for efficient operation, radiative cooling can become significant. It shouldn't be too hard to construct most of the vessel like a Thermos bottle (multiple walls separated by vacuum, all surfaces highly reflective), with a small portion of the vessel blackened for the absorption of highly concentrated sunlight. Another method that has been mentioned is launching water from Earth, then using solar energy to convert it to hydrogen and oxygen for use in a conventional engine. Because of its greater density, the water should be much cheaper to launch than LOX/LH2. It might be possible to save even more money by using an exotic launch method such as linear or laser launch. (How 'bout that, Nick?) John Roberts roberts@cmr.ncsl.nist.gov ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 91 01:18:59 GMT From: hub.ucsb.edu!ucsbuxa!3001crad@ucsd.edu (Charles Frank Radley) Subject: Re: Naval Observatory I have a beta version of the floppy almanc called ICE which you can download from my BBS on 805-649-5314. I obtained it from the Novac BBS but I do not have the number for them at my office. I will post it when I get home. My BBS max speed is 2400 baud, not sure if NOVACC has 9600 or not. I will tryo to e-mail it via uucp command, although that costs me $$$ at 2400 , it is quite a big file (4 files). ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 91 02:04:32 GMT From: borg!vangogh!leech@mcnc.org (Jonathan Leech) Subject: Re: Space Profits In article <21299@crg5.UUCP>, szabo@crg5.UUCP (Nick Szabo) writes: |> LLNL price estimates are probably unrealistic. LLNL has zero experience |> in manned spaceflight and space mining. Are you saying the latter implies the former? NASA has lots of experience in manned space flight and their price estimates (e.g. Fred) are undeniably unrealistic. More likely underestimating is endemic to gov't agencies, IMO. -- Jon Leech (leech@cs.unc.edu) __@/ ``Scientific progress goes "Boink"?'' - Hobbes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Mar 91 23:06:38 MST From: oler%HG.ULeth.CA@vma.cc.cmu.edu (CARY OLER) Subject: SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN - PACKET RADIO DISTRIBUTION X-St-Vmsmail-To: st%"space+@andrew.cmu.edu" /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ SOLAR TERRESTRIAL BULLETIN 08 March, 1991 New Products Available /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ SPECIALIZED PACKET NETWORK DISTRIBUTION - NEW PRODUCTS Amateur packet radio operators interested in staying on top of current radio conditions and solar terrestrial information should be pleased to note the release of several new revised products formatted specifically for packet radio network distribution. The prime objective of developing and providing these packet radio reports has been to provide compact, informational packets which can be easily integrated into the packet networks. The release of these new reports should help prevent possible communication congestion, distribution redundancy, and should increase the throughput and speed of distribution throughout the various packet radio networks being serviced. A mailing list has been established exclusively for those who are redistributing the reports and information through the packet radio networks around the world. Please note that this mailing list is not available to everyone. Only those who are dedicated to distributing the reports to the various packet networks will be granted access to this list. Other individuals or organizations who desire the data and have a legitimate reason will also be granted access to this list. Send all requests for access to this mailing list to: "oler@hg.uleth.ca". Please include a brief description of the packet net(s) being serviced as well as the approximate area that the respective network(s) cover (ex. North America, Australia, Japan, etc.). All of the major warnings and alerts which have been posted in the past will be reposted in a packet-format for rapid distribution throughout the packet networks. All previous products remain unchanged and will continue to be posted as-is. Please note that some minor changes to the packet report headers may occur over the next few weeks. Thereafter, the headers and general report structure will remain fixed. ** End of Bulletin ** ------------------------------ Date: 8 Mar 91 01:53:56 GMT From: zephyr.ens.tek.com!tektronix!sequent!crg5!szabo@uunet.uu.net (Nick Szabo) Subject: Re: German conference highlights doubts about ESA's manned space plans In article <1991Mar7.172412.17631@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes: >Experience so far says very strongly that if you plan to do in-space repairs, >you had better plan to have humans (or the imaginary just-as-flexible >teleoperated robots which will be available almost right away now for sure, >really, trust us) on hand. Or, if you prefer not to pay the $1,000,000++/hour cost of an EVA, you could make sure it works before you launch it. -- Nick Szabo szabo@sequent.com "What are the _facts_, and to how many decimal places?" -- RAH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Mar 91 11:06:09 -0900 From: "ACAD3A::FSRRC" Sender: "ACAD3A::FSRRC" ISECCo Update: India Agriculture & Notice of meeting delay March 7, 1991 On January 16 I took leave of all the projects which so fully absorb my time around here, and headed for India. On the way there I stepped off the plane is San Francisco for a week to go see Biosphere II, and on the way back I stepped off in Seattle to meet with some ISECCo people (not to mention do some business for my company.) Late 1990 and early 1991 was an extraordinarily busy time for me due to the immense amount of snow we got here in Fairbanks: I was shoveling 10,000 pounds of snow every day for 3 weeks, what with all the roofs I have that need shoveling! The result of that was I didn't get to mailing the ISECCo annual meeting notifications before I left. (I know, excuses...excuses.) Since our bylaws require advance notification by U.S. mail we must delay our meeting. Originally (as per the notification sent out 1/13/91) the meeting was scheduled for 3/9/91. We have re-scheduled the meeting for April 14, 1991...and will be sending out a notice to that effect soon. Although the main purpose of my trip to India was vacation, I did plan to investigate their agricultural practices because their (winter) climate is very similar to that which we expect to find in the biosphere. I did not get very far approaching research institutes because I ran into bureaucrats and did not intend to spend my vacation working my way through them to meet the people doing the work. However I did a considerable amount of exploring on my own and have a very good idea of the kinds of crops they plant, which was my goal. A large number of Indians are vegetarian. Thus their diet is very similar to that which we will develop for the First CELSS. We will have a limited amount of meat from fish and possibly other animals, but the bulk of the diet will be from garden crops. Many of the crops grown in India are familiar to us: cauliflower, turnips, peas, carrots, tomatoes, cabbage, lettuce, peanuts, and potatoes. Rice is a summer crop, so I didn't see any growing, but it was easily available and there were plenty of winter wheat in the ground. There was a variety of radish which I hadn't seen before: a white root that looked very similar to a carrot in size & shape. The only things I saw which you probably wouldn't find on the grocer's shelves were fruits--and we won't have room to raise them in the First CELSS anyhow!! There were a few notable absentees: beans (fresh, anyhow), pumpkins and broccoli. Squash was scarce. I am not sure if these were due to the season or what--broccoli is one which I would have expected to find any where you found cauliflower though, so I have no idea why it was missing. Agricultural practices were almost exclusively with muscle-power, be it plowing with oxen or harvesting by hand. A large portion of the crops was also transported by ox cart, and frequently on hand push-carts! Though for long distance transport they did use trucks. But all the gardening I saw was being done by hand. Planting, weeding and harvesting were done very much as a home gardener--and we shall do in the First CELSS--do here. Although I did not actually see anyone using fertilizer I believe it was widely used. I saw advertisements for it, and a couple of places where you could buy it. A certain amount of their fertilizer is in the form of human waste, for much of their (raw) sewage ran into their irrigation system, and a common method of relieving yourself was to find a nearby field! Cow manure is a common form of fertilizer here, but in India it is too valuable as a fuel source--a significant amount of cooking was done using dried dung patties, and it was a common sight to see these patties spread out and drying in the sun, or stacked into large piles ready for use! If Indian agriculture were a criteria for determining our crops in the First CELSS we would see few things which are not common here. Because I was not able to talk with any researches I did not discover any specific varieties, but for the most part it appears that our current crop designs would grow quite well in India. This indicates that they will grow fine in the First CELSS, whose environment will be very similar to that found in India. ON OTHER MATTERS: This has been a slow winter for ISECCo due to a severe lack of funds. Expenses have out-stripped income and until our finances recover activities are going to be curtailed. The principal project which got delayed is the creation of an ecological unit in the basement. Though we have most of the materials needed we lack the money to operate it. So we have delayed building it until we can come up with the $100/month necessary to power it. We may have an opening for a position this summer; those of you who are interested please send me your resume. The job will be strictly volunteer, though we will be able to provide room and board as long as there is 20 hours/week or more donated. The job will entail a variety of chores as diverse as weeding the garden and doing research. To a certain extent it will be possible to tailor the job to the person, so don't let a lack of specific skill keep you from applying! Also, in conjunction with ISECCo, my construction company may be able to offer a part-time job to those with suitable skills--the primary purpose of this is to give our volunteer workers pocket money...and fill a need my construction company has during the busy months! Having obtained the data needed from the poultry, we have terminated the experiment(s) and given all our remaining chickens and ducks away. If funding had been available we would have maintained them, but it wasn't. For a discussion of out poultry project wait for a copy of our 1990 newsletter! Speaking of our 1990 newsletter, it is going to be 4-5 months late this year. This was another ISECCo project that got delayed when I became so busy shoveling snow! It is about half written now, and we hope to have it finished by the end of the month--which most likely means May sometime! So, those of you who have paid for it, please excuse the delay! Due to the increase in mailing costs we are going to be increasing our minimum dues (currently $5 for 10 years of our annual newsletter). This will probably be a fairly significant increase, and will be effective starting shortly after the middle of April (i.e. after we have our Director's meeting). So those of you who haven't joined and want to get in on the cheap membership had better act soon! Due to circumstances beyond his control, Terry Fike has had to withdraw his nomination to the position of ISECCo secretary. Therefore we are seeking nominations for secretary. The limitations are: the person must be a local Fairbanks member who can donate a minimum of 5 hours/month labor to ISECCo. If you or anyone you know is interested in this position please advise me! * * * This is primarily written for distribution via electronic mail networks. It is not copy-righted and may be freely copied and distributed, in whole or in part. We also include a copy to our members being notificed of our annual meeting--for their benefit and for them to distribute to their friends and any interested party! Those of you who wish to know more should write me (via BITNET) at FSRRC@ALASKA or via the postal system at the address below. Please include a postal mailing address for all initial correspondence--we occasionally have letters whose computer return address fails for one reason or another. --Ray :: President, ISECCo :::The International Space Exploration and Colonization Company::: :::P.O. Box 60885::Fairbanks::Alaska::99706::: Researching and Developing space oriented technology for the betterment of mankind. * * * * * * * * * * * * {end} ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V13 #243 *******************